We need to talk about trading.

[peachy!]

(This post exists to talk solely about the issues of the current cs trading scene, and the lack of moderation around it.)

- do not use this post as an attempt to shame, call out, vague, or harrass others, including staff
- do not post examples of trades (not sure if that would cross into trade rant thread territory, so please don't)

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Trading. Let's talk about it.

If you've been on cs for.. a month or so, it's very apparent that the trading scene is a bit hectic and uncontrolled at the moment. These are some specific issues that i've noticed that I feel should be addressed. I would like this thread to remain constructive. Any ideas on how to improve these issues, or personal perspectives, is greatly appreciated.

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- Ninja Trading: Within the past few months, I and others have noticed a rise in ninja trades and attempted scams, especially surrounding the new monthly rares and returning users. It seems as though others are becoming more than willing to take more than necessary, or even fair, for these pets. The whole point of the rare outcomes update was to let newer users and users without pets or experience in trading rares have a chance at them, and now it seems as if every slightly hard to get outcome is a few rares or more. A lot of these attempts are also coming from experienced users towards less experienced or returning ones that i've noticed. Lying about high demand/rarity values has become common from what i've seen, and it's becoming increasingly more unfair and concerning.
Have you noticed this as well? How can we mitigate this issue beyond punishment/banning?

- Refusal to research values and fairness: I've also noticed a lot of newer and returning players becoming increasingly frustrated that their trades are being canceled, or were scammed. This seems to go hand in hand with the lack of knowledge, or want, to check the fair and successful trade threads. There are multiple clear guides on high value trading that I (and others) feel are being ignored. These threads exist for a reason, and it's really unfortunate that people are just choosing not to use them to their detriment. I feel as though highlighting these threads more often, like pinning them to the trade forum or even making an official cs post to acknowledge these things exists could help tremendously.
Do you think this could at least slow down ninja-trading? How can we make these resources more obvious?

- Lack of/inconsistent moderation: Personally, i've reported many users for scamming as of late. Disappointingly, no punishments have been made by my reports, or others. This is extremely concerning, as trading is the main point of the site, and it seems that every staff member has different opinions on what fair trading is, and what is a scam vs. what isn't. This is.. obviously an issue. When there is clear proof that a user who knows values is misrepresenting them, something should be done so that they can't do it again.
What can we suggest from staff to help this issue?

[Cara!]

I'm not sure what staff CAN do in this situation to be honest. I feel like the only fix for what's been going on in the trade scene can come directly from the community. I try to do my part by 1) not feeding into the hype/overpay machine and waiting for a reasonable trade for outcomes I miss 2) I don't ask overpay for in demand outcomes and will actively edit trades offering overpay to make them fair for the other user (this often involves editing to a regular litter or same month or previous month swap) 3) if I have an in demand outcome I try to make sure not to trade to someone who is snatching a bunch of that outcome up to sell.

It's such a dynamic problem that there is no easy fix and I don't feel like blaming staff or expecting them to fix it is fair. The fix has to come from us.

[peachy!]

I'm not sure what staff CAN do in this situation to be honest. I feel like the only fix for what's been going on in the trade scene can come directly from the community. I try to do my part by 1) not feeding into the hype/overpay machine and waiting for a reasonable trade for outcomes I miss 2) I don't ask overpay for in demand outcomes and will actively edit trades offering overpay to make them fair for the other user (this often involves editing to a regular litter or same month or previous month swap) 3) if I have an in demand outcome I try to make sure not to trade to someone who is snatching a bunch of that outcome up to sell

These are great points, thank you for sharing!

I completely agree that the community is mostly at fault here, but at some point I feel as though someone should step in. I implement these same strategies, and I have hope that most users do too, but it seems the minority is the loudest at the moment, unfortunately. I feel that, with the monthlies, it would be a good rule of thumb to suggest waiting until rarities are released for more in-demand outcomes.

edit: I would also like to point out that I am not blaming staff for this issue or suggesting they fix it alone; rather suggesting that more help is offered.

[Wookieinmashoo]

I have re-read these parts and I'm not sure what you are meaning by them.

- Ninja Trading: Within the past few months, I and others have noticed a rise in ninja trades and attempted scams, especially surrounding the new monthly rares and returning users.

Is this in regards to the monthly "not common" pets? Many people are frustrated they can't get a litter swap for them

It seems as though others are becoming more than willing to take more than necessary, or even fair, for these pets,

How much the general community likes a pet factors into what people are willing to trade it for, such as shima or malk staff pets. They are no more rare than the others but people like their designs so they're willing to "let them go" for more. It's when people keep wanting "a little more" each time the pet is traded that causes problems, such as with the raven.

The whole point of the rare outcomes update was to let newer users and users without pets or experience in trading rares have a chance at them, and now it seems as if every slightly hard to get outcome is a few rares or more.

I think the monthly rare outcomes were meant to give people more to do during the month. Are the newer users wanting more for them?

A lot of these attempts are also coming from experienced users towards less experienced or returning ones that i've noticed. Lying about high demand/rarity values has become common from what i've seen, and it's becoming increasingly more unfair and concerning.

Is this about the monthly pets or Dec.18th? People know the rarity of Dec.18th pets, people don't know the rarity of the monthly pets and are guessing.

I'm sorry this is a lot of questions, I'm just confused on what you are meaning by the entire paragraph since it seems it needs to be split up into two different ideas?

[madeth]

"Have you noticed this as well? How can we mitigate this issue beyond punishment/banning?"

unfortunately, ninja trading even before (i.e. dec 18) all of this has never been punished from what i have seen. infamous ninja traders have been able to avoid being banned because the rules seem to push blame onto the person who accepted the trade, even if that person is new or unfamiliar with values. it's very much a "if you accepted the trade, that is your responsibility" stance, even if the victim later reports the person who did it. the problem i have is that these people are purposely manipulating newer users or people unfamiliar with values and imo that should be bannable as it is essentially a scam. the whole rare outcome thing is making it worse, but i unfortunately suspect that the rules will stay the same. that brings me on to the next question

"Do you think this could at least slow down ninja-trading? How can we make these resources more obvious?"

i think that since there is no true protection for new players or unfamiliar players, they absolutely need to be shown these resources. unfortunately to combat scammers, ninja traders, and generally just players doing trades in bad faith, we have to take it into our own hands. when an offense is unbannable we just have to avoid it and educate ourselves as a community. the resources on pet values aren't very obvious on the website or forums. a person has to specifically be seeking out a value list to understand the difference between two pets of the same rarity. like a new player may just think that all OMGSRs are equal bc they have the same rarity tag, they won't know otherwise unless they look it up. there is also an issue with these new releases - we don't really, truly know the value. we as a community create the value when they release, and it looks like the people on top are overselling these "rare" outcomes for their own benefit. no way to track that, so while i think players may get better about trading older pets that have a set value, new rare outcomes are still a tricky situation.

"What can we suggest from staff to help this issue?"

i truly don't think there's anything staff can do with the rare outcomes. it is a community problem. they can enforce harsher punishments for scams, ninja trading, and other manipulative trade behavior, but it won't fix the problem that has been created here. it is on all of us to combat it and not accept it, but people become so desperate for a new outcome that they play into the overpaying... so really, there's nothing staff can do. it's on us. and many of us have complained a LOT about this, but we as a community still seem to be permitting this. and tbf i don't blame the people overpaying, it's the people forcing us to overpay unfairly that is the problem. also it is one thing to complain, it is another to take action. i wish it had never come to this, i came back in dec 2023 and never ever remembered things being quite so difficult to trade for every month but it's not the same as it was back then.. i'm personally refusing to overpay and have given up on my goal of getting all the 2024 pets already, nothing else i can do and nothing staff can do either.

[Gamezelle]

Either this topic will fall behind, or it will be locked cause there is no way to discuss that in details without talking about specific trading methods that could potentially aim at active users.
Hot takes thread, I miss you. May you find peace, little angel that left us too soon.


- There is an overpay culture that's gotten out of hand the last few months. For many people it's the only way to either make a profit or complete their collection nowadays.

- Judging by the Pound openings thread, the Pound updates thread, and everything about the Pound, it is clear a lot of users are disappointed by the lack of access to rarer pets. Only a handful lucky/rich ones will achieve their dreamies.

- The trading system is the definition of chaotic freedom. Thus leading to the infamous "Abide by my trading rules you must. Oh me ? Nah I don't have to follow through what I wrote." . Especially regarding values.

Honestly I thought about this for a while, and after playing quite a few browser games since I'm a kid I don't see any peaceful solution.
The core of CS is a limited amount of adoptables every now and then. Unlike games like FR where you can absolutely recreate your dream dragon with a bit of patience or luck in the Auction House, every pet on this site has a finite quantity.
You can't clone them, you can't create litters to your liking, you can't customize them how you wish (skins, or customs that would break the kid friendly rules). Apart from Dec 18th when even then your chances of getting what you like are incredibly low, you just can't get a pet you want easily.
As a consequence, the whole game economy runs around rarities and demand. Just like in real life, everything is there for profit because it's limited and vastly inaccessible if you're not willing to spend (either C$ or your own pets).

We can keep talking about this, but it won't change much.
People will always find excuses to not follow values guides, to send bad trades etc. I honestly don't see any solution to that without completely changing how the site operates.

[odin]

if noone offered crazy in the first place this would never happen but 1 person does and person with pet is like look how much I got and people with it want that much now and people trading think they need to offer that now sinse one person posted the trade. 🤷‍♀️ if people didnot let it spiral out from control, it would nt happen. but it's fear of missing out so they offer insane just to get it.

[peachy!]

I have re-read these parts and I'm not sure what you are meaning by them.

Is this in regards to the monthly "not common" pets? Many people are frustrated they can't get a litter swap for them

- yes and no. there have been a lot of high value item and list scams going around lately.

How much the general community likes a pet factors into what people are willing to trade it for, such as shima or malk staff pets. They are no more rare than the others but people like their designs so they're willing to "let them go" for more. It's when people keep wanting "a little more" each time the pet is traded that causes problems, such as with the raven.

- i agree, however, i don't feel as though this is comperable

I think the monthly rare outcomes were meant to give people more to do during the month. Are the newer users wanting more for them?

- no, but i've seen quite a few newer users handing over a lot for them, whether they knew it was fair to them or not.

Is this about the monthly pets or Dec.18th? People know the rarity of Dec.18th pets, people don't know the rarity of the monthly pets and are guessing.

- this is about all pets. and not every user knows the rarity of their dec. 18th pets until they can track the outcome or it has grown. a lot of newer users don't know these rarities either, especially concerning new urs.

i truly don't think there's anything staff can do with the rare outcomes. it is a community problem. they can enforce harsher punishments for scams, ninja trading, and other manipulative trade behavior, but it won't fix the problem that has been created here. it is on all of us to combat it and not accept it, but people become so desperate for a new outcome that they play into the overpaying... so really, there's nothing staff can do. it's on us. and many of us have complained a LOT about this, but we as a community still seem to be permitting this. and tbf i don't blame the people overpaying, it's the people forcing us to overpay unfairly that is the problem. also it is one thing to complain, it is another to take action. i wish it had never come to this, i came back in dec 2023 and never ever remembered things being quite so difficult to trade for every month but it's not the same as it was back then.. i'm personally refusing to overpay and have given up on my goal of getting all the 2024 pets already, nothing else i can do and nothing staff can do either.

just a quick aside, this isn't solely about the monthly outcomes. there have been a number of high value scams circulating lately. /nbr

and again, i do agree that it is on us as a community to fix the issue, but the lack of punishment is still concerning to me, which you addressed perfectly in your first comment. i wish the community was more willing to address and discuss the issue, which is why i made this post, but it doesn't seem like it's going to head in that direction.

and i don't think it's on solely the users offering overpay either, because they genuinely may not know, but some do and don't seem to mind how that will effect others.

- There is an overpay culture that's gotten out of hand the last few months. For many people it's the only way to either make a profit or complete their collection nowadays.

- Judging by the Pound openings thread, the Pound updates thread, and everything about the Pound, it is clear a lot of users are disappointed by the lack of access to rarer pets. Only a handful lucky/rich ones will achieve their dreamies.

- As a consequence, the whole game economy runs around rarities and demand. Just like in real life, everything is there for profit because it's limited and vastly inaccessible if you're not willing to spend (either C$ or your own pets).

i think the overpaying is mostly due to those offering up these pets, but i will agree that those purchasing aren't helping this situation either.

i don't want to discuss the pound thread further. i will only address this one; please don't bring it up past this post. /nbr

"Only a handful lucky/rich ones will achieve their dreamies." rich and lucky are not the same, and i'm very annoyed with this argument being brought up. it's not a disadvantage that older users know how to identify rarer pets.

yes, the game runs on a supply and demand economy, but that doesn't mean we should be able to inflate demand however and whenever we wish.

"We can keep talking about this, but it won't change much.
People will always find excuses to not follow values guides, to send bad trades etc. I honestly don't see any solution to that without completely changing how the site operates."

sadly, i kind of agree with this. i'm not entirely sure how to change the site operation to help, but i feel as though the site can definitely make these resources more obvious: perhaps including them above trades, like where the rarity bar is?

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thanks for keeping this civil everyone!

[-wingsofwasp-]

ninja trading:
• outcomes are trading for high prices.

I actually don't see this as an issue. yes, it does make it harder to trade for all of the outcomes you want, but for as long as I've played, more appealing outcomes have traded for more than they should. to this extent? no. was it this hard to obtain those outcomes? also no.

however, this is actually good for new players. overpay from their seniors offers them a chance at older pets, something that's hard to get a foothold into early on in the game. new players get like 50 or so pets for thirty entire days. any potential advantage is great for them! if they don't get the rare outcome, it's okay- it's normal to miss out on things. they'll be able to get it later if they really wanted it in particular. the entire point of rare outcomes is that they're rare, anyway- not everyone has them!

cs is full of overpay. many of the higher rarity pets have crazy values and oftentimes people will ask for more than they're worth, even above these overinflated prices. I don't see these as any different- people want them, they're willing to spend more on them, and that helps people do their thing. demand is not the fault of any one person, so treating this like an issue only scummy people perpetuate is not accurate.

• experienced players are taking advantage.

this is fine imo. cash in on all the trends you want, so long as you're making it clear what your intentions are.

• experienced players are lying/misleading.

this is the real problem. it happens all the time regardless of what the trade is. I know we've all seen our fair share of trickery, scams, and under-offers. what we need to do is create more resources for new players that are easier to find. a concise guide for trading monthly outcomes would do a lot of good! this is a huge problem, but I don't think overvalued pets are to blame for it. they're just an opportunity, the same as any higher-price/demand pet. demand rushes happen during events, too- I remember how high those chance-of-getting-them-when-you-collect-a-token pets were going for. they carry the same issues, so I don't see anything inherently wrong with capitalizing on demand spikes as long as both players know what's what.

we should encourage new players to ask questions:
- does this pet have high demand right now? for the long-term?
- what do you think this pet's rarity will be?
- why do you think this is a fair trade?
- are you planning on re-trading this pet? for how much?
- if I offered a trade-back, why or why not would you take it?
- do you have a link to a relevant trading guide I can use?

etc. while these won't prevent or entirely dispel these kinds of scams, trading with players that trade fairly and asking these will help new players learn the ropes faster.

we could also look into creating a fair trader's guild of sorts for new players: a list of users who, when contacted through the guild, will agree to abide by a list of rules that help enforce fairer trading and transparency (probably by using the questions above.). a list of players in the guild could be provided, and any time a trade was made through the guild it could be required to be posted to the thread. this way, if a shady trade was made that broke guild rules, players would notice and remove your name from the guild list. this would carry its own problems, of course, but it could offer newer players some safer opportunities! any player would be allowed to offer a guild-monitored trade to a guild member- so new users would be encouraged to utilize it, but discouraged from joining. I don't honestly think this is a good idea, but it's the best I've got. I also don't think it'd be allowed as there'd be no way to prevent shady traders from re-joining the guild due to the rule against blacklists. maybe something can be done to work around this while still following the rule?

there's no way to stop external traders from misrepresenting their motivations, but if we can secure a little piece of the market, that'll do some good. finding a way to do this is a good priority.

refusal to research values and fairness:
• players are upset their trades were canceled.
this isn't an issue in my opinion. if your trading partner is not willing to communicate why they canceled a trade when you ask, they're probably not a good trading partner. many people aren't willing to communicate or put in effort anymore and mention this in their trade rules. unfortunately, that's their choice. trading takes a lot of energy and some people don't need the responsibility of helping out. that's okay, if frustrating.

• players are upset they were scammed (perhaps partially due to their lack of knowledge).

these threads are actually really difficult to find, and it can be hard to distinguish between a useful and outdated thread. I've had several trading partners recommend different guides to me, and not all of them were even clear on the rules they were calling mandatory to follow if you wanted to trade with them! values can be very confusing, and I don't blame new players for having trouble learning. the fair trades thread is hard to navigate even if you do know the name of your pet (these are hecking difficult to discover, too), and you often don't get a response. new players aren't at fault for their lack of knowledge at all. in fact, many of the older players I've traded with have trouble too!

I agree that resources ought to be highlighted. having a 'masterlist' of guides with recommendations/explanations next to each link would be extremely helpful. it's hard to keep these things updated, though, so the thread should recommend using the search function to look for a version of the thread toting the current month + year in a specific format. that way, each version of the thread would help you locate the new one easily if you were recommended an old version, and you'd be certain the new one was up to date!

pinning/an official post would be excellent, but then players would take them as fact and be more stubborn against taking them with a grain of salt. I feel like this is a bad thing. no single trading guide is the be-all end-all, and if values are treated as concrete and unchanging, trading for new players becomes even more difficult. some leeway is very helpful when you don't have a perfect match to trade, like new players often won't.

lack of/inconsistent moderation:

honestly, if it's not been solved already, I feel like players need to take this into their own hands. I'm not hopeful that much more help can be given.

we should encourage new users to ask more questions. hopefully outright lies will be policed. let's encourage new players to ask which guide their partners are using to determine whether their current trade is fair. that'll help, too.

my main points are these:
• I don't think overvalued outcomes are an issue, or at least not a solvable one. they also have the potential to help new players if we get the wide-spread understanding part down.
• the scamming/trade misrepresentations/lack of understanding are a problem. I suggest that we work on making resources more cohesive and easier to find. I have heard from many people that they are tough to both locate and navigate.
• it's up to us to help new players out. making our own guides and resources or offering buddy programs for trade help so people don't get left unanswered could be great at reducing the knowledge void.
• I don't think these problems can be completely eliminated, but taking action to reduce them is still valuable!

[Wookieinmashoo]

- yes and no. there have been a lot of high value item and list scams going around lately.

Where are you seeing these? Are they in discord or another site? I'm not saying people don't scam or ninja trade, but what specific scams are going on that you have seen?